Masha
Vacuumist in the Void Registered: 25-03-2004
Posts: 527
The God wrote:
Good marketing product, developed to differentiate from the market. Product for non-Enlosh speaking community.
I think some of you should open your eyes and realize that you are having this unreal black and white picture about old/new Vacuum : You see Mattias as an angel and Bard as a devil who does everything for the money.
It’s really silly. I actually haven’t met before with this fan’s situation like it is here- that you have fans who were Vacuum fans and then as new album comes they turn against and underestimate previous albums?! What kind of fans are you if you change your affection so quickly ?! I can't believe you do it just to please Mattias ? I don’t think he would appreciate such fan love at all, I don’t think he is such a person. I liked old Vacuum and I still do. What kind of person would I be if I could change my fan love so drastically? I like new Vacuum too, although it is different. I like it in its new different way.
To claim that Bard made Vacuum in order to make it a good marketing product and so earn lots of money, is really without reason. Why? Well, first if he wanted to make good marketing product he would choose some neutral theme like usual love feelings, theme that authorities wouldn’t have anything against – because otherwise one can have problems in presenting his songs on radio and tv. Second, if he wanted to earn lots of money he would have targeted on countries in western Europe, that is on countries where he would be protected from piracy and where standard is better and therefore purchasing power of people is bigger. No, Bard was never commercial … I think this thing with BWO is his first try to make something commercial … IMHO
Last edited by Masha (09-04-2005 09:23)
_______________________________________ Bring on the clouds Let the raindance begin
I was just getting concerned where is Shadow, my discussion partner
I’m sorry… It’s because I have too much things to do now and can’t let me write much and frequently on the forum. Maybe some later I’ll be more active here. And Masha, you have not only me as a discussion partner.
The God wrote:
But my idea was just about way of classifying. As music and lyrics are not always fitting same frames. We can classify separately music and lyrics and then to combine.
I understand your idea. Just… I think that in the album, which we discuss now, lyrics and music are fitting the same stylistic frames. That’s why I don’t see as necessary to classify separately lyrics and music.
Masha wrote:
You and Satellite misunderstood this word. I didn’t use it in a negative way. On the contrary, in a very positive way!
Sorry, Masha… But the word “poor” means for me exactly poor.
Masha wrote:
Just tell me how did you come to conclusion that I don’t except something less powerful, please…
Shadow, why do you constantly think I’m not accepting this way… I really don’t know where you get these conclusions
I’m sorry if I misunderstood you… But intonation of your posts makes me think so…
Masha wrote:
A monk doesn’t think about himself, he thinks about others (not crying over his own personal life), he thinks about all people on Earth, yes, he might be concerned about stratosphere, nuclear weapon and America.
Dear Masha… Monks… Priests… I wouldn’t be so naïve to idealize monkhood etc… Btw… There is no monkhood in Lutheranism. Read the ideas concerning faith, monkhood and real life proclaimed by Martin Luther long-long ago when he rose against Catholic Church. Asceticism, monkhood are unnatural for human creature… They are contrary to the nature of human… So, they rather lead to sin and do nothing real for global human good being… Luther’s ideas are much closer to my world-view (that’s why I’m a Lutheran)
Masha wrote:
It is a higher level in spiritual cognitions because it shows how much they got free from egoism… A monk doesn’t think about himself, he thinks about others (not crying over his own personal life), he thinks about all people on Earth, yes, he might be concerned about stratosphere, nuclear weapon and America.
Oh, Masha… I don’t see as a higher level in spiritual meaning when somebody does nothing real for real someone beside him and proclaims some global love to all the mankind. It’s so easy to pray for all the world… It’s much harder to give a real love someone beside you who needs it… If people instead of leaving a real life for prayers about the whole mankind try to do simple and necessary things for those who are around them, we’d live in much more clear and good world…
Masha wrote:
I think that Bard compares America there with a powerful woman because woman is there a symbol of temptation, attraction like Poison Ivy, that leads us to misery and he compares American way of living with it because it appears very attractive (good standard of living …) but leads to misery(obesity, ecological destruction, who knows what else Bard has in mind …)
I guess your perception of the song idea coincides with authors concept. But I personally don’t accept this concept. I mean this attitude to a woman… Are you a man, Masha?… Why, being a woman, you so easy and joyfully agree to consider a woman as a symbol of temptation? Are you agree to consider a woman something evil and leading world to the end?… Do we need fires to burn witches?…
The God wrote:
Faith is much (MUCH) higher than any religion. Internal Flame gives much more light and warmth than the fire of burning down prophets.
And the fires and fires of thousands auto-da-fe
The God wrote:
New Vacuum turns from global to personal. From whole world to one soul. From stratosphere to internal world. And I like it even if I miss the ennormous power sounded in Mattias' voice at first albums. And I respect it as true creation of soul, not made for sale.
I couldn’t say better, my God!
Masha wrote:
I think some of you should open your eyes and realize that you are having this unreal black and white picture about old/new Vacuum : You see Mattias as an angel and Bard as a devil who does everything for the money.
Masha, I think you grossly exaggerate here… Nobody pictures Bard as a devil and nobody looks at Mattias as at an angel. They both are just humans in our eyes. And trust me – we look around with open eyes and open hearts. And I’d say more… Let’s not turn this topic into again discussing merits and demerits of persons (Bard and Mattias). Into again fighting between different points of view how to think about these persons. There were too much discussions in Russian in such a manner. They didn’t bring anything good…
Masha wrote:
…then as new album comes they turn against and underestimate previous albums?!
Masha! Nobody underestimates previous albums. As I see through all the topics here is no one person who’d say that he/she doesn’t like previous albums. If you ask each of foruumists do they listen previous albums and do they love them, I’m sure – everyone will answer you that they do.
Masha wrote:
What kind of fans are you if you change your affection so quickly?!
Masha, we don’t change our attitude towards Vacuum. Neither to previous, nor to present. We are just fans of music. And not adherents of defined cultus.
Masha wrote:
I liked old Vacuum and I still do.
Me too.
Masha wrote:
I like new Vacuum too
Me too.
And… What is the difference between you and me? You and me – we both understand most things the same way. We both love previous Vacuum and present Vacuum. What are we arguing about then? I guess… I guess you are not satisfied with my attitude to Bard as to just an ordinary artist. You’d like me to worship him and talking about Vacuum where Bard doesn’t take part anymore I’d continue singing hosanna together with you… But, dear Masha, as I told above, I’m just fan of music and not an cultus adherent.
Masha wrote:
Well, first if he wanted to make good marketing product he would choose some neutral theme like usual love feelings
He is quite clever man He knows that these themes are already spoken. To attract people he must invent something not so trivial. He invented a compilation of science and religion… It sounded quite fresh.
Masha wrote:
Second, if he wanted to earn lots of money he would have targeted on countries in western Europe, that is on countries where he would be protected from piracy and where standard is better and therefore purchasing power of people is bigger.
Didn’t you ever think that in Western Europe such tricks as he applied in the band concept would hardly succeed?…
Masha wrote:
No, Bard was never commercial…
I’m sorry, Masha, but I can’t agree with you. On the contrary he was commercial ever. It seems to me that you idealize him too much…
Blast me if all said has just something to do with discussing music style…
Last edited by Shadow (09-04-2005 21:27)
_______________________________________ "I'll take the shot for you/I'll be the shild for you/Needless to say - I'll stand in your way/I'll take the shot for you..."
I will talk and Hollywood will listen [RW]
09-04-2005 21:23
Masha
Vacuumist in the Void Registered: 25-03-2004
Posts: 527
Shadow wrote:
You and me – we both understand most things the same way. We both love previous Vacuum and present Vacuum. What are we arguing about then?
Yes, we understand most things the same way and we have quite a lot the same personal attitudes. We are unnecessary arguing because you are taking some of my objective analysis and explanations (like for example why there was lack of personal feelings in old Vacuum and what did Bard had in his(not mine) mind when he wrote woman named America) – you are taking them as I also share them as my personal attitudes, which I didn’t say. You are constantly doing the same thing, I comment something why I think it is (in some song or music style) and you take it as it is also my personal attitude and then you talk about is it a correct or wrong attitude. You subjectively jump to conclusion … and you noticed right – “But intonation of your posts makes me think so…” exactly, nothing but intonation- a sound that you subjectively create in your mind, but if you return and read once more exactly what I wrote you will see that, and then we won’t unnecessary argue. For example , read once more, I wrote “I think that Bard ( not me ! – that is what you added in your mind) compares America there with a powerful woman because woman is there(not a general truth or my personal opinion ! ) a symbol of temptation …” And OK you agree with that. Then you said “Why, being a woman, you so easy and joyfully agree to consider a woman as a symbol of temptation?” You see how you added something, I don’t know from where (I guess from that intonation you created in your head) I never said that was my personal attitude. But if we are talking about personal attitudes (and that would be off topic) ok, then I’ll write my personal opinion : I personally think that love ( I won’t say true love, because if it isn’t true love why should we call it love at all) originates from the hearts , it’s communication between hearts and souls, and it has nothing to do with acts of seduction. But, I guess in that song was nothing about love, I just explained what I think that song was about. It doesn’t mean that I agree with it or feel such way too (that is what you incorrectly added). I personally, could never make such comparison, first because it isn’t in my nature and secondly, I don’t know much about America or world politics so that I could agree or disagree with such statements. Only because I’m not like that doesn’t mean that I can’t or try to understand what is in the mind of someone who is different. And I’m thinking about it because I want to know why I liked old Vacuum (that heavy topic that you started ) Was is the melody, the voice or the meaning of the lyrics? I realize that that the “ideology” of new Vacuum is closer to my personal attitudes, but I still want to understand the ideology of old Vacuum. Maybe when I finally explain most of it and realize what was it about, maybe I’ won’t like it anymore. Who knows ?! Maybe, like Satellite said, lyrics were vague … so each of us could give them some meaning that suits us personally. And so everything was complete – rich music, GREAT voice and flexible lyrics. I also miss orchestra sounds in new album, I think if they had only made music richer in new album, it would retain that grandness of old Vacuum but in a new, more sincere and humble way.
Shadow wrote:
Blast me if all said has just something to do with discussing music style…
Well, you were mostly off topic because you were arguing about personal attitudes which were mostly your comments on my explanations about some features in old/new Vacuum style or individual songs (that accidently came through discussion) which weren't off topic
Last edited by Masha (10-04-2005 10:24)
_______________________________________ Bring on the clouds Let the raindance begin
10-04-2005 07:09
Masha
Vacuumist in the Void Registered: 25-03-2004
Posts: 527
I forgot to comment this also …
Shadow wrote:
It’s much harder to give a real love someone beside you who needs it… If people instead of leaving a real life for prayers about the whole mankind try to do simple and necessary things for those who are around them, we’d live in much more clear and good world…
I agree completely with you !! Yes, way through real life is a very hard way … because even when we think we are right, good and doing the right thing … as we go through life we slowly become aware of mistakes that we have done, unaware of it... There is that saying which says something like ‘road to hell is paved with good intentions” It is very painful realizing it. But still, we must never give up and always try to do the best we can and the way we think it's fair ! This theme reminds me on “Big Kahuna” movie I thought that monasticism has came out of this awareness, like they already went through this life and know what it means and brings to us, so they rather get aside from real life so they could avoid making these mistakes and only by prayers help, that way they avoid hurting others. Yes, now I understand that real monasticism shouldn’t at all interfere into problems which people deal with in real life … otherwise it would be a hypocrisy… yeah… But I agree that like everything else, monasticism ideas got many deviations in the shape of sects, which usually have some political and who knows what else purposes … and sometimes it happens that persons who can’t give real love and care towards a real person besides him maybe from some psychological reasons, go to such societies as a kind of curtain behind which they hide their defect… Yes, there are a lot of deviations but I believe in the rightful origins of it in a way that I explained above.
Although we had different opinions, I must say I find this topic and posts in it very interesting and useful, I got some new views … you are all great !!!
_______________________________________ Bring on the clouds Let the raindance begin
10-04-2005 13:49
The God
Vacuumiracle From: Heaven
Registered: 22-06-2004
Posts: 1007
wonder wrote:
The question is: was old Matty truly in him CORE?
Wonder, I would rephrase your question a bit. The question is: is current Matty truly in HIM core?...)
Last edited by The God (11-04-2005 03:03)
_______________________________________ If you want to burn the witches - Here I am If you want to throw the stone - Here’s my face If you want to pass the judgment - Break my neck If you’re looking for a justice - Cuff my hands
11-04-2005 03:02
The God
Vacuumiracle From: Heaven
Registered: 22-06-2004
Posts: 1007
Hello, ladies! I see you did not waste time... I can hardly find time to read everything you have posted...
Masha, I loved old V// and I love new one as well. Previous sound of Mattias' voice was unbeliavable, but the content of new album is much closer to my soul. That's all.
You are trying to understand why do you love old V//? Please do not do it. Sometimes when I do it with other bands, I understand it. And calm down when seeing somesthing shallow I love. In old-Vacuum case I prefer rather to love it then to analize to avoid this. I love vocal and sound/music. That's enough. The same with many bands.
Talking about marketing... I think Shadow has explained it correctly. It is always a question of product and target audience. But who told you about commercial purpose? Not me. I said "marketing", not "commercial". Trust me, as a proffessional marketee I know the difference well enough. Bard has done really good marketing product... but without strong commercial potential. Thus it brought him a lot of awareness. He implemented some his ideas impossible for other projects. Made smth original, different from market's mainstream.
By the way I do non like Bard. But I respect him much for one thing. For Vacuum.
See yo all during next coffee break...
_______________________________________ If you want to burn the witches - Here I am If you want to throw the stone - Here’s my face If you want to pass the judgment - Break my neck If you’re looking for a justice - Cuff my hands
11-04-2005 03:46
Masha
Vacuumist in the Void Registered: 25-03-2004
Posts: 527
The God wrote:
Hello, ladies! I see you did not waste time... I can hardly find time to read everything you have posted...
Hello !
The God wrote:
It is always a question of product and target audience. But who told you about commercial purpose? Not me. I said "marketing", not "commercial". Trust me, as a proffessional marketee I know the difference well enough. Bard has done really good marketing product... but without strong commercial potential. Thus it brought him a lot of awareness. He implemented some his ideas impossible for other projects. Made smth original, different from market's mainstream.
Sorry, I wasn’t aware there is such difference I just thought that good marketing makes a product well known and so consumed by a large audience ... and so it becomes commercial. It was kind of all the same to me So, you think old Vacuum was not commercial , but it was good marketing product. Did I get it right ? Could you please explain more about the difference between marketing and commercial ? A great chance for me to hear it firsthand ! And, in your opinion, which were that good moves by which Bard made old Vacuum good marketing product ?
P.S. I liked so much those new smilies that Shadow started to add in her posts ... so now, it got me too
Last edited by Masha (12-04-2005 06:31)
_______________________________________ Bring on the clouds Let the raindance begin
12-04-2005 06:26
The God
Vacuumiracle From: Heaven
Registered: 22-06-2004
Posts: 1007
Masha wrote:
I just thought that good marketing makes a product well known and so consumed by a large audience ... and so it becomes commercial. It was kind of all the same to me So, you think old Vacuum was not commercial , but it was good marketing product. Did I get it right ? Could you please explain more about the difference between marketing and commercial ? And, in your opinion, which were that good moves by which Bard made old Vacuum good marketing product ?
Usually best marketing products are targeted to quite small audience. Theese brands usually live longer. If we look at Rollce-Royce, they do not have mass sales. Still it is a perfect product with almost 100% brand awareness, strong image. Moreover it gives good image to producer when they make another cars. We can take another good example. KORG, Roland, Fender, Gibson, Marshall, TAMA, Zildjan... World-known brands of musical equipment. What percent of population uses them? They are targeted to very small audience - musiciants. From musical brands we can take Metallika. Everybody knows it. But only metallers like it, not all metallers btw. So the same is with early Vacuum. It was a product oriented to specific audience. Interesting product, original one. Unusual, bright and.... strange. It was definitely not pop (at least not dancing mainstream). But still not rock. For me it was always just Vacuum. As separate music style, differing from all I ever heared before. But the most close comparisons were in synth-pop.
And couple more words about difference between commerce and marketing. You can make a brilliant commercial product without any marketing strength. All radio channels are full of clones in pop and rock. Similar songs, music, vocals. Sometimes I hear some song 50 times but do not know the performer. And then I see it on TV and appears I know that band, but the song was not typical for them. You can not differ them. Two years ago you forget theese songs. But conquering all charts theese songs bring some money and awareness to performers. It brings us to conclusion about genious move of Bard and old Vacuum. Wat was differentiating Vacuum? Music? More or less. Lyrics? I doubt. Similar themes were widely used in rock. Vocal? Definitely. Unique powerful and charming vocal. Smth that was unable to copy. Smth that you catch at once from ether.
Another question is whether current Vacuum has lost or won anything by changing the style? God, I really miss that voice. But I like new one as well. For me they have got music more intellectual, spiritual and heartful. I hope they will keep it on. And if Mattias turns back to more powerful vocal again (at least for some songs)...
_______________________________________ If you want to burn the witches - Here I am If you want to throw the stone - Here’s my face If you want to pass the judgment - Break my neck If you’re looking for a justice - Cuff my hands
12-04-2005 07:14
Masha
Vacuumist in the Void Registered: 25-03-2004
Posts: 527
Thanks !
I remember I read in one interview where Bard said that in that time, they (him and Wollbeck ) just were in such mood to make such music ... and if people like it , great ! but they weren’t expecting a lot of people liking such heavy stuff like Vacuum ...
Well, maybe Bard wasn’t honest when he said that (maybe it was all calculated) but to me , it sounded to be honest ...
The God wrote:
Another question is whether current Vacuum has lost or won anything by changing the style? God, I really miss that voice. But I like new one as well. For me they have got music more intellectual, spiritual and heartful. I hope they will keep it on.
Well, they won and lost something at the same time They just changed... Now we have songs where Mattias’ s voice is warm, sensitive and even fragile in a kind of delicate way ( oh I like Sea OF Silence ... ) These are some new different qualities in new Vacuum that I like
The God wrote:
And if Mattias turns back to more powerful vocal again (at least for some songs)...
Who knows ... and I guess we will be right here to hear it !
Last edited by Masha (12-04-2005 08:59)
_______________________________________ Bring on the clouds Let the raindance begin
12-04-2005 08:57
The God
Vacuumiracle From: Heaven
Registered: 22-06-2004
Posts: 1007
Masha, I think Bard could be honest enough during that interview. Good mktg products are not always results of calculations and analyses. Sometimes it's a brilliant idea in one's head or even... crazy idea, that turns into smth serious. I think the last one is exactly V// case...
Last edited by The God (12-04-2005 09:54)
_______________________________________ If you want to burn the witches - Here I am If you want to throw the stone - Here’s my face If you want to pass the judgment - Break my neck If you’re looking for a justice - Cuff my hands
12-04-2005 09:51
Masha
Vacuumist in the Void Registered: 25-03-2004
Posts: 527
The God wrote:
Masha, I think Bard could be honest enough during that interview. Good mktg products are not always results of calculations and analyses. Sometimes it's a brilliant idea in one's head or even... crazy idea, that turns into smth serious. I think the last one is exactly V// case...
Yes I agree !! It seems so to me, too !!
_______________________________________ Bring on the clouds Let the raindance begin
and Bard as a devil 
who does everything for the money.
I can't believe you do it just to please Mattias ? I don’t think he would appreciate such fan love at all, I don’t think he is such a person.
Why? Well, first if he wanted to make good marketing product he would choose some neutral theme like usual love feelings, theme that authorities wouldn’t have anything against – because otherwise one can have problems in presenting his songs on radio and tv. Second, if he wanted to earn lots of money he would have targeted on countries in western Europe, that is on countries where he would be protected from piracy and where standard is better and therefore purchasing power of people is bigger.
He knows that these themes are already spoken. To attract people he must invent something not so trivial. He invented a compilation of science and religion… It sounded quite fresh. 
I will talk and Hollywood will listen 
[RW]
I just thought that good marketing makes a product well known and so consumed by a large audience ... and so it becomes commercial. It was kind of all the same to me 
Could you please explain more about the difference between marketing and commercial ?
) just were in such mood to make such music ... and if people like it , great ! but they weren’t expecting a lot of people liking such heavy stuff like Vacuum ...
) but to me , it sounded to be honest ... 
idea, that turns into smth serious. I think the last one is exactly V// case... 
